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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 4 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 209

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Deckplans
         2. Death of Literacy
         3. Virus thru sensors?  Not!
         4. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190
         6. RE: Fission reactors
         7. Re: Mathematics in Traveller
         8. RE: Fission reactors
         9. Re: Disposable PCs
        10. Re: Fission reactors
        11. Re: Virus by Radio
        12. RE: disaster recovery
        13. Re: Traveller Small Craft/Fighters
        14. Uncle Jesse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 16:15:13 PST
Subject: Re: Deckplans

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> FP is a vector based program, and its native format is propriatary,
> but it will export to EPS (encapsulated postscript) and DXF (data
> exchange format). 
> 
> My questions has to do with EPS and DXF.  I'm really not familar with
> either format, what commonly available programs can display them? 

EPS is Encapulsated PostScript. And I have yet to see anything cheap
that will convert *from* EPS to another format. You should be able to
view EPS files with GhostScript, but I don't know where to get a copy.

DXF is a new one for me. Never heard of it.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 03:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death of Literacy

Thus spake Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>:

[some of Joe's miscellaneous thoughts snipped]

> 4)  Is it just me, or does it seem that a lot of skills were lost in only 
> 70 years?  The book talks about societies that are comprised of people 
> unable to read and write.  Literacy is that easy to loose?  Hmmm.

Well, considering how print had been supplanted by holocrystal and 
magnetic media, once the Collapse happened and everything went bonkers, 
there wasn't much to read except road signs.  In a different scenario, 
like the Long Night, which is more of a gradual slowdown rather than a 
sudden collapse of society, and from a lower average tech level, more 
text was still in print form and even that which wasn't might have only 
suffered a power failure, and just needed some wattage in order to be 
accessed (and read) again.

Therefore, literacy would be much harder to maintain in the aftermath of 
a sudden, watershed event like the Collapse than it would have been 
during an interregnum such as the Long Night.

Then, of course, there are some hicks and crackers who never bothered to 
read in the first place, civilization or not.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Virus thru sensors?  Not!

Thus spake Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>:

[previous discussion snipped -- we begin talking about the Big Spill]

> 	According to the tome "they began spewing high-speed data 
> transmissions which were picked up by several of Dulinor's ships as well 
> as Lucan's."  Okay let me revise what i've just said in light of this new 
> evidence.  Tight Beam Transmissions, only picked up by ships in a certian 
> area of the sky.  But again what are the odds given the vastness of the 
> radio spectrum that both Dulinor and Lucan's men were listening to the 
> same radio frequency?  If I though they were good I'd run out and start 
> buying lotto tickets now.  So how did Lucan's ships get initally 
> infected?  Passive EMS, it's the only plausable explanation.

This presumes that tight beam communicators were used.  Nothing in the 
text says this is the case.  I'd hardly say that an assumption that you 
yourself made proves your case.  You also make some assumptions about 
Passive EMS sensors that are difficult to support.  Your eyeballs are 
passive sensors.  Granted, they don't pick up anything outside of the 
visible light spectrum, but if I took an audio transmission of, say, 
American Top 40 and used it to modulate a visible light source, would you 
hear the week's #1 pick?  Would a video camera, even a high speed one?  
Given a high enough speed camera, one could conceivable demodulate the 
visible source and get the broadcast, but now we're assuming that a great 
number of steps have been taken.  True, it says that a passive EMS sensor 
can function as a radio receiver in a pinch, but it is never stated that 
this is a standard mode of operation.  A passive EMS's normal mode would 
note the location and strength of a source emitting EM radiation in the 
radio wave spectrum, but not much more.  Demodulating it under routine 
conditions is someone else's job, namely the communicator's.

[more snippage]
  
> I agree with you for 90% of the Virus infections out there, but it is 
> clearly evident from the passages in "Survival Margin" that the initial 
> infection of Lucan's and Dulinor's starships did not involve the standard 
> starship transponder unit.  They involved radio communication.

It's already stated that Dulinor's ship's actually took the step of 
downloading the transmission directly into their computers.  It is not 
stated that none of Lucan's people did the same thing, nor is the 
possibility that a transponder set could have soaked up the transmission 
disallowed.  It's a given that Dulinor's fleet actively took on Virus 
infestations, and it's also stated that Lucan's fleet was not spared the 
effects of Virus.  The exact method of infection occurring to Lucan's 
ships is open to a slight amount of conjecture (transponders or 
computer-controlled communication systems), but there is hardly fertile 
ground for proving that any type of sensor could have served as a viable 
vector for Virus infection during that incident.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:20:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Thus spake Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>:

[previous discussion snipped]

> Yes, this is a bunch of hand waving, but do we really understand what makes
> a zygote begin to grow and prevents the sperm and egg from growing?  Without
> getting into eternal debates over abortion, do we really know what makes a
> zygote (or new born baby) a living being.  How are these things possible?
> We are talking about the reproduction of a living being.  We know that our
> reproductive system works, and we can give pretty good explanations of how
> they work, but we can't tell why they work the way they do.  Why should we
> be able to tell this about Virus?

No, probably not.  I think that there's a point about all sorts of 
speculative phenomena peculiar to SF and/or Traveller where 
overdiscussion and overdefinition of them can actually make the concepts 
less lucid.  We've gotten into the same trouble before about FTL drives 
and feudal technocracies.  I suspect that if I'm not too careful, I'll 
soon cross this same Sanity Line on the Virus issue.  I'm much more 
comfortable discussing what it is not rather than what it is.

[snip]

> >I am now transfixed by this irregular, though round, shadow which is 
> >steadily growing larger and larger.  What's that whistling sound?  
> >Where's my umbrella?
> 
> I don't know, but I'm gonna side step outa here!  I don't like the feel of
> anvils(or rocks) on my forehead!

Especially when they're travelling significant fractions of the speed of 
light.  Say, I hear that they're pretty hard to stop once they reach 0.1 C...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 17:57:37 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

Bill Garmer <bgarmer@tst.com> writes:

> >BTW, I understand that some folks use the Barrett .50 cal as a sniper
> >weapon. That's what I assumed above. Like I said, it'd take nattele
> >dress to survive a hit from *that*. :-)
> 
> Yes they do - it has been type accepted as the M82A1 (a few small
> differences from the commerical version I believe)
> 
> >(God that rifle is a beautiful weapon. Pity it costs a small fortune)
> 
> Yes - a beautiful rifle but it weighs too much to carry anywhere.

I understand it breaks down into something not too awkward for a pair
to handle. And if we were up against high-tech troops, I bet we'd be
using them or worse. 

As I recall, someone figured out that the Finnish 20 mm Lahti, and the
Soviet 17mm ancestor of the SKS could both nail even troops in
Battledress. 

Such a surprise those troops will get when they invade the "low tech"
world. 

(BTW, if you haven't read it, David Drake's "Forlorn Hope" has a fun
version of this where a merc company finds themselves excluded from the
ceasefire and amnesty because they managed to take out a starship being
used for a surface bombardment run with their anti-armor weapon. They
have to find a way back to the starport lines before the winners find them)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 18:10:33 PST
Subject: RE: Fission reactors

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> On 07/02/96 at 11:17 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> said:
> 
> >SS Savannah. Passenger liner. Nuclear powered.
> 
> Are you sure?  I thought Savannah was listed as a cargo/supply ship,
> not a passenger liner.

The pictures I saw sure looked like a passenger ship to me. 

> Was Savannah *ever* in truly private hands, or wasn't it always under
> the control of the AEC?

I know the AEC had a lot of control/supervision because of the reactor,
but I do believe it was privately owned. Anybody got a copy of Janes,
or the Lloyd's registry?

> IAC, it proved to be non-viable economicly, didn't it?

Yep. Because before it could pay off, folks started getting nervous
about nuclear power. So bookings went thru the floor.

I also suspect that while it had cargo capacity (most liners used to
carry some cargo, usually stuff that requires a bit more speed than
regular frieeghters, but don't merit air cargo prices), they may have
tried fort a compromise between cargo and passenger and gotten the
worst features of both. Also the drop of air cargo prices in the 60's
pretty much killed the idea of having cargo capacity in excess of
passenger needs on passenger ships.

Passenger liners in general were doing bad in the 60s until the new
generation of cruise liners came into existence, where the point was
the *cruise*, not getting from point A to point B, however comfortably.

I think the Savannah was a victm of bad timing. If it had been built in
the early to mid 50s, it might have done ok. 

These days, even if the financing looked ok, I doubt you could get a
nuclear powered civilian ship built easily. Passenger ships wouldn't
get the business, and nuclear power really doesn't "buy" them anything.

Freighters and tankers get the axe for a couple of reasons. Partly
because of anti-nuclear protesters and partly because of the fact that
some of the better runs for such ships go into places like the mideast,
where we just *don't* want to risk the ship getting hijacked. Just
think what Iraq would do if they got their hands on such a ship.

But by the time of the Imperium, nuclear power is as old as *iron* is
now. People aren't going to be *unrealisticly* worried about it, and
they'll have several *thousand* years of experience tell them what the
odds of various sorts of accidents are.

It's also likely that an active, expanding society is going to be a lot
less "safety at any cost" than our current society. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 18:29:53 PST
Subject: Re: Mathematics in Traveller

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> ...4d6 (drop lowest roll) 
> 
> I don't know the statistical function, off the top of my head, but
> *logically* it would go like this.  You have a 2d6 + [the better of 2
> 1d6's].  The 2d6 gives you an ev of 7.  The *best* the better of 2
> 1d6's could give you is 6, and that would only be (1/6 + (5/6)(1/6))
> of the time..I think.  So the ev would have to be 13 OR LESS.  You'll
> get the ev of 13 only ~30% of the time, and less than that the rest of
> the time.
> 
> So, I'll guess, take 2d6+6.

After writing a quick program, I get the following distributions:

Best 3 out of 4 dice

roll	freq	total	%	total %
- ----	----	-----	-----	-------
 3	  1	   1	  .08	   .08
 4	  4	   5	  .31	   .39
 5	 10	  15	  .77	  1.16
 6	 21	  36	 1.62	  2.78
 7	 38	  74	 2.93	  5.71
 8	 62	 136	 4.78	 10.49
 9	 91	 227	 7.02	 17.52
10	122	 349	 9.41	 26.93
11	148	 497	11.42	 38.35
12	167	 664	12.89	 51.23
13	172	 836	13.27	 64.51
14	160	 996	12.35	 76.85
15	131	1127	10.11	 86.96
16	 94	1221	 7.25	 94.21
17	 54	1275	 4.17	 98.38
18	 21	1296	 1.62	100.00

2 dice + 6

roll	freq	total	%	total %
- ----	----	-----	-----	-------
 3	0	 0	 0	  0
 4	0	 0	 0	  0
 5	0	 0	 0	  0
 6	0	 0	 0	  0
 7	0	 0	 0	  0
 8	1	 1	 2.78	  2.78
 9	2	 3	 5.56	  8.33
10	3	 6	 8.33	 16.67
11	4	10	11.11	 27.78
12	5	15	13.89	 41.67
13	6	21	16.67	 58.33
14	5	26	13.89	 72.22
15	4	30	11.11	 83.33
16	3	33	 8.33	 91.67
17	2	35	 5.56	 97.22
18	1	36	 2.78	100.00

And for Traveller character generation:

Best 2 dice out of 3 

roll	freq	total	%	total %
- ----	----	-----	-----	-------
 2	 1	  1	  .46	   .46
 3	 3	  4	 1.39	  1.85
 4	 7	 11	 3.24	  5.09
 5	12	 23	 5.56	 10.65
 6	19	 42	 8.80	 19.44
 7	27	 69	12.50	 31.94
 8	34	103	15.74	 47.69
 9	36	139	16.67	 64.35
10	34	173	15.74	 80.09
11	27	200	12.50	 92.59
12	16	216	 7.41	100.00

1 die + 6 

roll	freq	total	%	total %
- ----	----	-----	-----	-------
 2	0	0	 0	  0
 3	0	0	 0	  0
 4	0	0	 0	  0
 5	0	0	 0	  0
 6	0	0	 0	  0
 7	1	1	16.67	 16.67
 8	1	2	16.67	 33.33
 9	1	3	16.67	 50.00
10	1	4	16.67	 66.67
11	1	5	16.67	 83.33
12	1	6	16.67	100.00


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 20:17:09 PST
Subject: RE: Fission reactors

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> > Loss of power is much the same danger with any ship. It's just that the
> > pieces will be radioactive. (Actually, given what we know about fusion,
> > they'll only be *more* radioactive, fusion reactions give off neutrons,
> > and the inside of the reactor does get radioactive).
> 
> Has there ever been any thought given to using heavier elements to power
> fusion reactors?  Using Carbon, for instance, would require a hell of a
> lot more containment, but would the increased power gains make it worth
> it?

The trouble is, the power avialable from fusing elements drops rapidly
as the atomic weight goes up.

Fusing helium to carbon produces a *lot* less energy than fusing
hydrogen to helium.  And it gets rapidly worse after that.  To figure
the energy release, just add up the atomic weight of the starting
nuclei, and subtract it from that of the resulting nucleus.  That's the
mass converted to energy.

The usual fusion chain in a star is fusing 4 H-1 to 1 He-4, then when
the hydrogen in the core runs out, the core compresses and the temp
goes *way* up. That allows fusing 3 He-4 to 1 C-12. I think the next
step is silicon, and the final stage is when you get to Fe-56. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 20:45:02 PST
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> (BTW, this is coming from a guy who has the complete first series of
> StarBlazers)

"We're under attack by *what*?!?"

"It looks like the Yamato, sir"

"But we're in outer space!"


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 19:46:44 PST
Subject: Re: Fission reactors

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:

> Which gets me wondering why the Imperium doesn't have something like the
> Coast Guard which (with its force of 37,000 currently) does ALL the
> boarding of vessels for anything other than military take overs.  I'm in a
> class with a guy who was a CPO on a sub in the Gulf Conflict, and they
> needed a Coast Guard Liason officer to board ship, because the Coast Guard
> official had the authority to do so.
> 
> There is no way the Imperial Navy would let itself get tied up in the
> patrolling of commercial vessels, so where is the Imperial "Coast Guard".
> This would solve all the fission reactor, HEPLaR, etc. regulation
> problems...AND they would also cover most of the anti-piracy role, as well
> as rescue ops...

The thing is, the Imperium is more like an archipelago, rather than an
island or continent. Plus, there's no "high seas" once they run into
other territories. 

These two factors taken together make the navy vs coast guard roles
strike a *very* different balance. So I'd say that things break down
like this:

Some spacefaring planets have "planetary guards" that handle things
from the limits of the atmosphere to some Imperially defined "limit of
planetary sovereignty". Others don't.

Some planets claim large portions of their system as their territory.
These are mostly planets that got that far *before* contact. They may
have joined the Imperium under terms that left the control of these
portions of their systems. In exchange for this, *they* are responsible
for patrolling the system except in emergencies.

Both of the above are like sort of like "state police" with some extra
duties. I'm basing some of this on Oregon's quite serious threat to
set up a state *navy* using some surplus vessels if the Coast Guard
didn't start doing a better job of enforcing fishing restrictions in
our territorial waters. 

I suspect that the "coast guard" is *part* of the Navy, much like the
Army Air Corp used to be part of the Army. They'd have the right to go
after things clear down to the limit of planetary sovreignty, and
possibly beyond. (Sort of like how both the Sheriff's department and
the Coast Guard *both* patrol the Willamette and the Columbia).

So the coast guard would be responsible for a lot of search and rescue
vessels, "cutters" (several hundred ton armed vessels used occasionally
for S&R, but mostly for customs and patrol work). They'd also be
responsible for the SDBs and their tenders. In fact, I'd say most
"normal" system defence stiuff would be theirs. 

The "real Navy" would have the battleships and battle riders and all
the "escort" type ships.

So just as Coast Guard units served in Vietnam and the Gulf, the
Imperial Navy would grab such units as they might need for system
defense and patrolling duties for the units normally assigned to such
things. 

I expect that there'd be some intense rivalry between the two halves of
the Navy. Both would look down on the other side. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus by Radio

Thus spake Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>:

> This radio/comm unit transfer would be (IMHO) the main method of entry in
> the RC as well.  I doubt the RC still uses the Deyo transponder!  (Shame,
> shame if they do!)  So all New Era infections would either be through
> physical contact or communications!  Now I'm beginning to see the trouble
> the Anti-Virus side has with this concept.  I still will keep the Virus as
> long as its part of that C word we all love to hate.

Once the true nature of the Deyo transponder suite was discovered, they 
were scrapped.  Any pre-Collapse ship which still has one within its hull 
has probably had the plug pulled in order to activate their auto-fry 
mechanisms.  Also, post-Collapse ships don't have anywhere near the 
systems integration that earlier models did; the more 'dispersed' 
architecture was necessary to prevent the possible spread of Virus 
infestation.  It's also stated that communications are now done by hand.  
It can probably be a pain in the butt when you're trying to maintain a 
tight-beam link during violent maneuvering, but it beats being the ball 
in a game of Grav-Pong.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "TOM O'NEILL" <tom@csvax1.ucc.ie>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 12:36:25 BST
Subject: RE: disaster recovery

Concerning recovery from disasters in the Imperium, one thing hasn't been
mentioned yet. Colonisation of virgin planets has taken place for thousands of
years and the Imperium have records of how to do it, the skills required and
the normal mistakes made. The canon indicates that emergency supplies and
information are stored on many planets. Given the nature of communication in
the Imperium being confined to jump-capable spacecraft, there will be many
recorded instances of people being stranded out of contact for years, decades
and even centuries. While it may be a real pain to point out that almost
everything has already been done by someone else 1000 years ago, this is the
case in the Imperium. (a really annoying NPC type could be a historian who,
whenever the PCs feel proud about some achievement, rattles off the first
recorded time it was done and who did it).

	Now the virus would be a special case as a lot of the advanced
emergency aid would be computerised expert systems (probably mostly Vilani as 
they are good at that sort of thing) and these could not be trusted. But then I
don't personally agree with the goals of the plot device called Virus and so
chose not to suspend my disbelief in its existence :)

						Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:43:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Small Craft/Fighters

Thus spake "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>:

[snip]

> Here are my questions from those that actually found the time to play BL
> or BR.
> 
> 1. How useful are area jammers?  I want to design Wild Weasel craft to
> spoof and destroy enemy sensors, and to cover attack fighters while they
> close with other ships.

They're great if they're not on your craft.  Any craft carrying an area 
jammer is much easier to pick up on passive (well, duh!), but they do 
make sensor tasks that trace a line of sight through their area of effect 
twice as difficult (I don't want to go into details, suffice it to say 
that I'm *really* simplifying things here.  Twich as difficult = "one 
additional difficulty level") for each HEX that the line of sight passes 
through.  If you've got several area-jammer drones in a line, you can set 
up a barrage of EM noise that's very hard to see through.

> 2. I know that ships can "hand-off" sensor locks.  If so, then could a
> AWACS type craft lock on to craft, then hand off the signals to Ladar on
> fighters?

Yes.
 
> 3. How will missiles work, are they Detlasers like in TNE, or are they
> HE/Nukes like CT/MT.

They're them nuke-u-lar det-o-nation x-ray laze-ur thingys.  Apparently, 
the guys who designed BL/BR had a hard time accepting that a missile 
would survive the last 30,000 km to the target without getting fried by 
defensive fire.  They made a pretty darn good case for their argument, too.

> 4. How many sensor locks can a ship maintain?

As many as they've got sensors for.  Typically a ship's main array(s) 
will get the initial target locks, hand them off to the dedicated EMS 
sensors of master fire directors, and then go look for more.
 
> Lastly and most importantly how will these fit into the "new" space combat
> system?

I've got absolutely no idea.  I suspect that they won't matter as much, 
if at all, in the simplified combat system.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:57:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Uncle Jesse

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 13:37:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: Uncle Jesse
> 
> Jesse Helms would strip the basic protection of law from homosexuals.  He
> believes that the United States is a Christian nation, and that no other
> religion has any place here.  He advocated a nuclear first strike against
> the Soviet Union.  He comes from a tobacco state, and has been the leader in
> keeping this cancer causing killer on store shelves.

Isn't he also responsible for the latest anti-Cuban bill which has most of
the US's trading partners PO'ed.  Some folks are still living and
breathing the cold war.



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #209
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